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Catherine Nichols: Hello, everyone.
Welcome back to "B-Well Together."
I'm Catherine Nichols, the Vice President of
the Office of Accessibility here at Salesforce.
October is Disability Employment Awareness
Month, and it is Abilityforce Champion Month,
where we get an opportunity to spotlight that
Salesforce is a place where employees with
disabilities can succeed.
We work to make sure our physical and our
digital environments are designed for all.
And by advancing accessibility, we cultivate
a culture where all employees feel empowered
to do their best work.
Today, you're in for a real treat, as am I.
Our guest is such an incredible star power and
talent, larger than life personality and a
real force for inclusion, and the Oscar
goes to--sorry, I got carried away.
What I meant is it's truly my great pleasure
to introduce actor and director Troy Kotsur.
You're sure to recognize Troy from the Oscar
awards show as winner of Best Supporting Actor
in the acclaimed film CODA.
I can't recommend this film enough.
I watched this with my 12-year-old daughter,
my husband, and my mother-in-law who is
fluent in ASL, American Sign Language,
and we loved it.
Your amazing role, both touching and comedic,
earned Troy several other accolades,
including the BAFTA, SAG Award,
and Critic's Choice Award.
But most notably, Troy made history as the first
deaf man in Academy history to win the Oscar.
Beyond film and television, Troy is also a
member of the prestigious Deaf West Theater.
And finally, as an advocate, Troy is
passionate about expanding inclusion and
opportunity for the deaf and disabled community.
Today, we'll get a glimpse into Troy's life,
his winding road to success, and the crowning
moment of winning that Academy Award.
Also joining us today is Troy's ASL
interpreter, Justin Maurer.
Hello, Troy, and a very big welcome
to "Be-Well Together."
Troy Kotsur: Thank you so much for having
me today.
It's my honor to be here with you all.
I'm thrilled to be here, hello.
Catherine: Hello.
So, in this wonderful movie, CODA, which we
learned stands for child of deaf adults,
it centers around the character's daughter,
the only hearing member in the family,
and her journey to break away and start
a life of her own choosing.
This letting go is somewhat reminiscent
of your own upbringing.
Can you share a bit about your own childhood
and the impact of allyship, once others
learned ASL, American Sign Language?
Troy: Absolutely.
So, I come from a hearing family.
And when they found out I was born deaf, they
did not know I was deaf until I was about
9 or 10 months old.
And so when they discovered I was deaf, my
parents did not know what to do, because this
is back in the '70s, and so there wasn't much
access in medical profession or education
as far as what the needs are for deaf folks
and access that they need.
And so, fortunately, our family doctor advised
my parents to send me to the Phoenix Day
School for the Deaf in Arizona, and I would
learn ASL at school and would bring back
American Sign Language to my parents, and they
were able to learn from me, and we developed
our ASL at home and were able to communicate
with each other.
And my father was in a car accident when
I was a teenager, and he was bound
to a wheelchair for the rest of his life.
And so after one day, my father came up to me
in his wheelchair and told me, "Hey, Troy,
you should think about what you want
for your future.
Don't worry about me.
You know, we have plenty of family members who
can help look after me and take care of me:
your brothers and our family and friends.
Why don't you move on with your own life
and do what you want to do?"
And at that moment, it was really hard for me
to accept what he was saying.
And I said, "Are you sure?
Don't you need me here to support you?"
Because my father, at that point, he was no
longer able to feed himself, or drive, or play
golf, or any of the things he was doing
before his accident.
And so it was very difficult for me to let go
and move on with my life, but when I see that
moment in CODA when the character I played,
Frank Rossi, has to disconnect from his
daughter, that's a really tough moment, but
there were moments in my life that reminded me
of that moment as well.
Catherine: Thank you so much for sharing that.
We actually have something in common
that I wasn't aware of.
My father was paraplegic and also utilized
a wheelchair.
So, I appreciate you telling us that story.
Your path to become an actor grew out of your
love for storytelling, and as I think about
the art of signing, it's so expressive and
individual, a weaving of choreographed steps,
in a way.
So, how did you come to take this additional
step and pursue storytelling as your career?
Troy: Keep in mind that, as I mentioned,
this was back in the '70s, and we didn't have
any closed captioning in TV or film.
We didn't have--we had limited interpreting
services, and my favorite show growing up was
Tom and Jerry, the cartoon, with the cat and mouse
chasing each other.
The fight scenes, the eyes bulging out,
it was so visual.
It was great visual storytelling,
even without dialogue.
And so that cartoon was my favorite,
and so I would watch Tom and Jerry,
memorize an episode, and tell the story
on the school bus the following morning.
And so I would see all of these
children's reaction on the school bus,
their laughter, their eyes lighting up,
and it really felt good.
And so the expressiveness of sign language
in all the above is a great way to share
storytelling with others.
And through the years, I realized that I was a
bit limited, because there wasn't so many
opportunities for deaf actors out there
in TV or film.
You know, it's mostly hearing actors.
They really depend on the sound and the score
and sound effects.
And so I really didn't have much access,
but I found opportunity at Deaf West Theater
in Los Angeles, because they had performances
in sign language.
And so it was a collaboration of hearing
and deaf actors.
And what we developed there, I think that
everyone really needed to see that type of
unique performance where you have deaf and
hearing actors performing together.
And why I continued onstage is I felt like
everyone needed to increase awareness of deaf
culture and American Sign Language and the
mere existence of deaf people too.
And through the years, finally, we hit it
with CODA, and now the world knows about
American Sign Language and deaf culture.
So, that's a reason why I was glad that I
never stopped, and I never gave up and kept
going, because I didn't think of my own life
as being limited, but it was tough to find
work as an actor.
And so I didn't stop.
I just wanted to follow my heart and continue
doing what I loved, which was really
important to me.
And that's why I didn't stop, and I persisted,
and now I won an Oscar, and I feel like
all that hard work paid off.
Catherine: Yay!
So, speaking of access, what was the
importance of captioning and how CODA was the
first kind to embed captioning right
into the movie.
Troy: It was extremely important,
because there was a long history.
So, remember back in the silent film era, right?
This is before the talkies or before audio
existed in filmmaking.
Deaf people had access because there were
little bits of closed captioning in those
silent films.
And so when the talkies and audio came in,
deaf people were excluded from the filmgoing
experience for years.
And so Hollywood is always thinking about the
money and the audience, and they're kind
of--they didn't remember about folks that were
deaf, hard of hearing, folks who had hearing
loss when they get older, or people that
became disabled later in life.
So, Apple TV+, they were extremely brave in
just deciding to burn in captioning into the
entire film at every showing and screening
of the film.
So, that was the first time I was able to sit
in the audience and see hearing members of the
audience and deaf members react
simultaneously, laugh together,
react together.
As a deaf audience member, I would always miss
or have a delay, and I'd have to ask a family
member, "Hey, what did they say?"
And there was a delay in my own reaction to
what was going on in the film.
But with CODA, we were able to reach everyone,
even the White House.
President Joe Biden invited the cast of CODA
to visit the White House, because Jill
and Joe watched CODA twice.
So that really told me a lot, that our movie
was able to reach so many people
all around the world.
And just like your company reaching out to me,
because I think our film inspired and touched
so many people.
And I have to take my hat off to Apple TV+
for having the courage to burn in captioning
for our film.
And I really hope that they're considering
doing more and more films like that, and no
matter what movie it is, because historically
I tended to watch foreign films,
because they were always subtitled.
Know what I mean?
I'm really hoping that everyone will have more
access and have more freedom of choice
as audience members.
And one example is when I fly on the plane,
and I was on a flight recently, and the man
next to me selected the same film as I did.
So, he was sitting there with his headset in,
enjoying the film, but we had no captioning.
So, it was like we paid the same price
for the ticket, but this hearing guy has
more access than me.
I don't have captions on my own screen on the
flight trying to watch the same film
as my fellow passenger.
So, we're making progress, but it's baby steps.
Catherine: Yeah, and I can tell you with
all access and inclusive design, my family as
a hearing family, and we always have
captions on, because we don't want to miss
something, and we want to be able to follow
along in real time.
So, it really benefits everyone.
Troy: Absolutely, absolutely.
If you go to a restaurant, it tends to be
quite noisy in the background, and you notice
that sometimes they put captioning on TV in a
bar or a restaurant, so you can watch a game
or watch a program.
You know, there's a big benefit to everyone
to have the captioning on.
I had a hearing roommate at one point, and I
could turn the sound down, and so with
captioning on, it didn't bother my roommate.
Catherine: Yeah, like following along on an
Instagram story or a Twitter feed when you're
on the bus or something like that.
It's--to just follow along without
having to turn the sound on.
It really benefits all of us.
So, thank you for sharing that perspective.
And then I'd love to hear more about
the Deaf West Theater too.
You were talking about it before,
and just those who aren't familiar with it,
can you tell us more about what makes it
such a special place?
Troy: Deaf West Theater was the only
theater company that really had opportunities
for deaf actors to perform in sign language.
And in New York, on Broadway, for example,
it's all hearing actors.
You have musicals, you have plays, and so on,
and Deaf West was just one theater in
Los Angeles that had shows in sign language.
So, people enjoyed seeing these plays,
because they have a long history of theater
productions having an interpreter on the side
of the stage or in the corner, and deaf
audience members miss a lot of information.
Imagine if the tables are turned, and they're
signing without voice interpretation, how the
hearing audience would miss information.
And so there was a curiosity with hearing actors
working with deaf actors for the first time.
And besides our language, we're just people.
The only difference is the language
we communicate in.
And I noticed that a lot of these hearing
actors they ended up becoming
sign language interpreters.
And I said, "Hey, how come you became
an interpreter?"
And they said, "Well, that Deaf West
production I was in changed my life.
It really inspired me."
So, I'm sure that you all know the play
"Hamlet" by Shakespeare.
And if you read it, you know the story.
So, his uncle, the king, wants to get rid of
him, because he doesn't want Hamlet
to get into a position of power.
And so we adapted that at Deaf West.
So, if Hamlet is deaf, it makes it
a bit more interesting.
So, you say, "Hey, I don't want this deaf guy
to become king, and that was one of the
reasons that the hearing uncle wanted
to kill off Hamlet.
You can add even more layers to the story and
make it more interesting.
So, we always would try to find the right
script that we could adapt and include the
deaf perspective, like "Streetcar Named
Desire," written by Tennessee Williams,
of course.
It's a classic play, but the role of Blanche,
one of the leads, so she escapes to see her
sister, because she doesn't want people to
spread rumors about her past, and so she moves
in with her sister, and we made
the sister deaf.
So, Blanche would feel safer thinking that
people wouldn't spread rumors, because her
sister being deaf, but deaf people are great
at spreading rumors and finding out
what's going on.
So, there was even more layers to that story
and so many more possibilities.
Or in Huck Finn, for example, the story of
Huck Finn written by Mark Twain, so you have
Jim, who was the slave, and so we had an actor
playing Jim, and then we had Huck being deaf.
And so Huck Finn was deaf,
and he was traveling with Jim.
And because he was deaf, he was oppressed
in that society, just like Jim was oppressed.
And so they had something in common that added
even more layers to their relationship.
And so it was what was so beautiful about
Deaf West Productions.
It was like adding--making the plays more
three-dimensional, as far as not focusing
so much on audio.
You have the visual beauty of sign language,
as well as the spoken lines by the voice
actors, so there's even more for the audience
to enjoy.
Catherine: That's amazing.
It's so engaging for the audience.
I love that.
And then acting is one way, and through
theater is one way that you were working
on storytelling.
Can you talk about your love of directing and
what that road has looked like for you?
And what are some of the advantages and
challenges of being a director who is deaf?
Troy: That's an interesting question.
So, I noticed that many hearing directors
really haven't had any experience working with
deaf actors, and they don't know what to do.
So, sometimes they zoom in on your hands.
And I'm like, okay, hold on.
Imagine if the tables were turned, and as
a deaf director I'm fascinated by the mouth
movements of this hearing actor,
and I zoom in on their lips.
It's a similar concept, right?
And what's important with sign language,
you need the facial expressions.
You need body language.
You need all of the modalities included.
And so when I've worked as a director,
I've kept that in mind.
And so if you think about the camera in
filmmaking, it's a visual language, and so you
make sure the camera doesn't miss anything.
You make sure that you don't cut away
in the middle of dialogue in sign language,
if you know what I mean?
And so it's nice to have a deaf eye as
a director, because you're visually aware
of what would be best for the show.
And second of all, if I was directing, and I
directed one independent film, and 50 hearing
people worked under me, and we had three
interpreters on set, and so I worked with an
interpreter, and the interpreter would, you
know, we'd communicate with the other actors
using the interpreter, but it was amazing that
I made it through, and I succeeded being a
director with 50 hearing people under me.
And at first, the crew members
were a bit afraid.
"I don't know what it's like to work
with a deaf director.
How are we going to communicate?"
And on the first few days, that fear
evaporated, and we made it through.
We made it through together
as a collaborative team.
And so I can bring in the interpreter as,
like, a sound dialogue coach.
And if I was hearing, I would need a deaf
dialogue coach to help me understand if the
performances in sign language were great.
And so I bring in someone to help me with
the sound only, and that's common sense.
And so you can be creative and problem
solve when you're on set.
It doesn't mean if you're hearing, or deaf,
or trans, or LGBTQ+.
It's just a matter is if you're talented and
you do whatever you can, and you adapt,
and you problem solve.
Catherine: Yeah, and isn't it great how we
can all problem solve better together when
there's more representation of different
communities in the same place?
You can really become innovative problem
solving for sure.
And then so other--
Troy: Absolutely, and I'd like to add
something, if that's okay.
Catherine: Yeah, oh, please.
Troy: So, there's so many people who have
never worked with folks--so, say Deaf West,
or on any TV show I was working on, so a few
years later, you run into these folks that
you've worked with, and they already had an
experience working with a deaf actor, and it's
really important to help them gain awareness
and gain experience on how to work with others
who are different than them, but in different
lived experiences, and that really benefits
the work environment.
Catherine: It so does.
I benefit from that every day, and so
I can definitely attest to that.
And I would just love to hear from you, too,
that you urge others to tell stories that
haven't been heard before.
And what stories do you feel that need
to be told right now and why?
And maybe any new and interesting projects you
might have in the works.
Troy: I would love to work with Steven Spielberg
one day, because he was someone
I really looked up to ever since I was a kid,
and I watched all of his film.
"Raiders of the Lost Ark," "ET," and all these
incredible films, and he's actually from
Arizona, my home state too.
So, I have a connection to him in that way,
and I was able to meet him, and I really had
to work hard to prove myself.
And winning the Oscar was a good reason
and a good excuse to approach Spielberg.
And if I hadn't won an Oscar, you know,
it's like, "Who's this guy?"
You know what I mean?
And so I really had to work hard to prove
myself for 35 years as an actor, and now
I have a great network, and I was able
to actually meet him.
So, that's one of my goals, and I would love
to share stories about deaf historical figures.
One deaf historical figure, his name is Deaf
Smith, and he was in the war between Texas
and Mexico as a spy for the Texans.
And without Deaf Smith, you may not have
the state of Texas today.
And so it's a true story that people don't
know about.
Another one is a gentleman named Dummy Hoy,
who was the first deaf professional
baseball player.
And he played for Cleveland, and Dummy Hoy
actually invented the hand signals in baseball
for out, safe, strike, ball, foul ball,
and so on.
And many people don't know that he even existed.
And so I feel like we owe it to these deaf
historical figures who have been neglected,
and their stories haven't been told, to tell
those stories, because we've learned a lot
about hearing folks' history, but where's
our opportunity to share deaf history
and deaf culture.
So, I'd like to share those stories, and I'm
really looking for a film where people
wouldn't expect a deaf character to be in.
For example, maybe 007, James Bond, who knows?
Catherine: Could be you.
I would like to see you in a James Bond movie.
So, let's definitely make that happen.
Yeah, and then just to go back to my dad--
Troy: I'm too old.
Catherine: No, never, never.
Yeah, I was just gonna say back to my dad.
He was an umpire, and oops, I lost my headset,
and he--and I didn't know that about the signs
with baseball.
I would love to see the movie behind that too.
That's so interesting.
Troy: And people not knowing about him
is just my point.
I would love to share those stories with
others to just increase awareness.
And we have such a rich history as a deaf
community, and I would love to tell those stories.
Catherine: Yeah, that would be incredible.
So, just during your acceptance speech at the
Oscar--and many, many congratulations.
You dedicated the award to the entire
disabled community.
And I'd love you to tell us about that moment.
And as a representative of the community, what
was that experience like for you?
Troy: When I was growing up, I didn't see
any deaf folks on Tv.
You know, I had friends who were deaf, and I
saw the oppression, and frustrations, and
communication breakdowns, and lack
of access that they were going through.
And my younger brother, when he was four years
old, he drowned in our family swimming pool
when I was seven, so I was quite young, and it
just so happened that my brother became
disabled after that experience, and my father
was in a car accident, then we had a second
disabled member of their family--of our
family--and then me being deaf that was a
third, but I had so much respect of what they
were going through.
And so that's why I wanted to dedicate my
Oscar to the deaf and disabled community,
because I don't want people to take their
lives for granted.
I really have hats off and so much respect for
disabled people, and I grew up with a
disability and growing up with two disabled
members of my family.
So, if I didn't have that personal experience,
I may not have dedicated my work to them,
but because I did, that's why I wanted
to mention them.
Catherine: Great, yeah, thank you, awesome.
And I would just love to know, too, like, how
do you look after your own personal well-being
through the years.
Like, any lessons you've learned to pass along
to our B-Well community and "B-Well Together"
community here today?
Troy: I love playing golf.
For me, that's a great place for me to escape
and disconnect, because you're out on the
green, and you're not in the middle of a busy
city, and traffic, and business meetings,
and all of that craziness.
When you're playing golf, and you're out on
the green, I really feel at peace, and I'm
able to disconnect, and that's one way for me
to relax, and it's good to know that I get
good--enough sleep before the following day,
so I have enough energy if I'm giving a
presentation, or a speech, or an audition, or
meetings, or whatever I'm doing for work, it's
really important for folks to invest--if
they're investing in me, then I need to invest
in them to make a production work and to make
sure that I have small portions of food to
keep my weight the same.
Catherine: Yep, we were talking about
moderation and also it sounds like taking care
of yourself so that you can take care of
others is super important, so thank you for
sharing that.
Troy: Absolutely, I'm a father,
I'm a family man.
I have to be responsible for my daughter and
my work, and it's important to have
that work life balance.
My daughter just went to school, and so now I
have time for myself, and after school I could
focus on her and my family.
So, it's really fun to figure out that balance.
She's now a senior in high school, and that's
why I really need to take advantage of this
little time I have left, and it kind of
reminds me of the movie CODA,
where the father has to let go of his daughter,
and now I'm doing it in real life.
Catherine: Oh, boy, well, congratulations
on getting to that senior year.
It's quite a journey.
I know myself.
And then, yeah, so before we go, I'd love to
ask--go ahead.
Troy: Especially during awards season.
During awards season, I was out of town so
often, I didn't see my daughter much, but I
brought her to London to the BAFTAs, and I
brought her to the Oscars, because I felt like
it was so important that she was there to
witness what her dad was going through.
And I think she was proud, and I think she
started to understand what I was going
through, and so it was really important
that she was there.
Catherine: Gosh, I'm sure she'll take that
through her full life and so proud.
And what a moment to share with her, amazing.
Troy: It was so important for her to have
those memories for the rest of her life,
and even after I leave this earth.
Catherine: Yeah, the legacy, pass it on.
I would love to hear more about your hats,
once you have a chance--
looks like you're talking, sorry.
Troy: Oh, sure.
So, you might notice that I always wear hats
everywhere I go, even during TV interviews,
and I do that for several reasons.
I live in Arizona, and we have quite a bit of
sun out here, and my eyes are very sensitive
to the sun, so that helps with that.
In general, when I was acting on that theater
stage, I would have to communicate with the
director and the interpreter, and so I'd be
standing on stage, but we'd have these really
bright stage lights, and so quite often I
couldn't see, and I'd have to put my hand over
my eyes to be able to see.
Then wearing a hat, I could free up my hands,
and I can just get to work.
And during awards season, imagine all these
Red-Carpet interviews with these bright lights
and these cameras, and you just have these
lights on your face all the time, and quite
often I couldn't see the interpreter signing.
But if I tilt my hat down, then I'm able to
see, and I'm able to respond to those
questions, and also I don't have time
to comb my hair.
I could just put my hat on and go.
Oh, and my name sign is Troy like this because
it was like my trademark, because I was always
wearing hats, and so my name sign stuck.
And it's funny, I was thinking about setting
up a hat company, maybe Concert Caps.
Catherine: Mm-hmm, I like it, fashionable
and functional.
We don't get that very often.
So, I say do it.
Troy: I'm thinking about it.
I'm still thinking about it.
It's a work in progress.
Catherine: Well, Troy, it was an absolute
pleasure to meet you and learn about your
incredible story of never giving up and
surpassing even your own expectations.
So, big thank you to Troy and to everyone
who joined the call today.
Happy Disability Employment Awareness Month
and Ability Force Champion Month.
And remember, be happy, be healthy, be well.
All right, bye everyone.
Thank you, Troy, thank you.
Troy: Send all my love to all the disabled
people at your company.
Love you all, thank you.
Catherine: Thank you.
♪♪♪
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