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(Theme Song Playing)
- Hello everyone, and
welcome to BossTalks,
a new series featuring
candid career conversations
with people I admire
and trust to keep it real.
Today, we're talking about something
I can totally relate to,
and that's letting go of perfectionism.
I know there was a point in my career
when I thought it was a good thing
to try and do everything perfectly,
but in reality, the fear
of making mistakes
is what was holding me back
from going after new career opportunities,
and really being my authentic self.
I've often referred to myself
as a recovering perfectionist,
because I've definitely had to learn
how to ask for help and bounce
back after making mistakes.
But I've come to realize that this process
of moving away from perfectionism,
is actually a sign of growth for me.
And that's the framing
I wanna take into today's conversation.
I couldn't be more excited
to welcome someone
I personally have a
career crush on (chuckles)
the brand new CEO of TIAA,
and the former CEO of
Chase Consumer Banking,
Thasunda Brown Duckett.
Thasunda, welcome to BossTalks.
I am so thrilled to have
you here with us today.
- Thank you so much, Ebony.
I feel the exact same way.
- So, today's episode
is all about letting go of perfectionism,
which I shared is something
that I personally had to learn.
And sometimes, the hard way.
Thasunda, you make it look so easy,
but I know there's so much
more to someone's journey
to success than what we think we know
or see on the surface.
And that's what I wanna dig in today.
So let's jump in, starting
with the first question.
So, your career trajectory
has been so inspiring to watch,
and I'm sure there are a
lot of people watching today,
who would join me in saying,
we've been cheering
you on from the sidelines.
And you just took on another
big role as CEO of TIAA,
which for those of you who may not know,
is a Fortune 100 provider
of secure retirement
and outcome-focused investment solutions.
So, congratulations on that.
Can you take us back to
where it all started for you,
and what your journey
has been to get there?
- For me, you know, the truth is
I did not dream of becoming a CEO.
That was not in my consideration set.
But I grew up in Rochester,
New York, moved to New Jersey.
And we moved to Texas.
And we moved with everything
that we owned in a car.
Two siblings and myself,
my mom and my dad,
and all of our belongings,
which means there was not much.
And so, I know what
it's like to literally start
your life at the bottom.
What my parents taught me,
which I think is key to where I am today
are my ownable assets.
They taught me the
importance of whatever you do,
you do it with excellence,
or you don't do it at all.
- I feel like we can't have a conversation
about perfectionism without talking about
the pressure of black excellence.
I know for me, my mom was very intentional
about how she raised me,
and insisted that I be excellent.
For me, I know that I remember
if there was so much as
an eraser mark on my paper,
she'd look at my homework
and she'd say, "Do it again.
Do it again."
And sometimes I had to create my own paper
just to turn in my homework
because she was like,
"It's not excellent enough.
It's not good enough.
You can do better".
I laugh, and it's a funny story now,
but I'm grateful for it.
Can you share about
how this showed up for you,
or if it still shows up for you?
- I think, honestly, Ebony,
I think what our parents were giving us
was an understanding
of what we're up against.
And I think for me, knowing
that I had to be so good
that I couldn't be denied,
if there was an opportunity
where I was just as good
or a little bit better,
and I did not get it,
I didn't beat myself up
as much because I said
I wasn't so good that
I couldn't be denied.
But that comes with a lot of pressure.
And if we're honest,
I think this level of
being a perfectionist
is also at the intersection
of confidence and lack thereof
and insecurities and vulnerabilities.
Because in our pursuit
to be a perfectionist,
we're doing mental gymnastics in our head.
We're second-guessing ourselves.
We're saying, I could
make it a little bit better.
I can make it a little bit better.
Versus saying I'm at a place
where I produce the best
that I could produce at this moment,
and putting that pen
down or that pencil down.
And I think that comes
from a really deep place
of understanding what it
means to have black excellence,
but also the pressure
that it puts on ourselves
when we are not ascending,
or when we don't get that opportunity,
we start to do those mental gymnastics.
And I think that's where it
can become counterproductive
in our own confidence-building.
- That is so true.
One of my mentors tells me to this day,
she'll remind me to
tell myself, I am enough,
I have enough, I do enough. Yes.
- And that's a mantra
that I have to repeat
because I have a hard time
sometimes letting that go. Yeah.
- I love what you said
about the mental gymnastics.
So, what advice can
you offer for our audience
when dealing with this
perfectionism, and especially women?
- Yeah, I mean, the advice
your mentor gave you
is an advice that I'd
hold with me as well.
That I am enough.
I think reminding
ourselves that we are worthy
and deserving to be in the room.
And also reminding ourselves
that the reality is to get to the room,
we were not perfect.
The reality is we went
through a lot of ups and downs,
whether it's our own how
we were raised narrative,
or whether it was those moments
where you had to overcome
your lack of confidence or insecurity.
And so, I think sometimes
reminding ourselves
that that excellence
lies within those levels
of not being perfect.
And in fact, if you are striving
for perfection, that's okay.
You're striving, but
realizing that the job
is never done and perfection
is never ever attained,
but the pursuit of always
trying to be the best version
of yourself is where
you really want to be,
but not ever settling on saying perfection
is the destination.
Because in fact, if you ever believe
you've reached that level of perfection,
you probably have marginalized
or lowered your standards.
- So let's transition.
So that mentality that we
had when we were younger
of needing to do things
perfectly, or not at all,
that definitely for me
crept into both my personal
and professional life.
And this was really
especially apparent for me
when I needed to ask for help.
- And that was something
I had to actually learn.
But when I did,
it really opened up my
capacity for leadership
because I was able to collaborate
and also consider new ideas.
Can you talk about just your
process for asking for help?
Did you have to learn to do that?
Or did that come naturally for you?
And how did you use
maybe your mentors for that?
- Yeah, I mean, I come
from a sports background,
and I think my mindset
is understanding that
in order for me to be
excellent, I need a coach.
And how I define a coach
in the sense of mentorship
means that mentorship is all around me,
I just have to have an openness
and a willingness to receive it.
And so, let me tell you what
that means for me, Ebony.
My executive assistant mentors me
because she shows me the
ability to put someone before self
in how she presents herself.
You know, the person
who delivers your coffee
with that smile every
day is mentoring you,
reminding you about kindness.
And so, I just think that
when we define mentorship,
sometimes we narrow that definition,
and we look for one
person to be all things for us.
And the reality is there's
so much that makes me, me,
and you, you, which
means I may need a mentor
for the examples I just raised
or a mentor on how to navigate motherhood
or being a wife or being an executive
or being vulnerable or being a dreamer.
And so, I think the goal
is not to rely on rented
titles for your mentorship,
but rely on the character
within individuals
that connect to what you need development
or reminding or help with.
I think is the most important thing.
- Oof! I hope you all are getting this.
So mentorship can come from anywhere.
It's about that character,
the qualities that we're
looking for, not the title.
I think that's huge.
- Absolutely, I like to
say Ebony, I rent my title,
I own my character.
- And I just--
(both laugh)
I mean, honestly and I think
if we all operate in that space
knowing that titles are rented,
you give yourself a breath.
So, Thasunda, I'm a big
believer in taking risks.
And I recently wrote
something on boss notes
encouraging people to try something new
even if it means you might not get it
100% right all the time.
- And a few people wrote me to say that
they wanted to take more risks,
but they fear the criticism
that comes from making a mistake.
So, how do you think
about taking risk at work
and also do you have any
guidance on how to bounce back
if you've made a mistake?
- First, let's just remember
we can't escape criticism.
Just my being can invite criticism.
And so, I think if we think
of criticism in the context
that there is nothing
that you do or do not do
that will exempt you
from criticism, is step one.
I think step two,
is knowing that it's
okay to be vulnerable.
It's okay to invite feedback in.
No one wants to hear
it, but we all need it.
But what I would encourage
everyone to think about
is what are your hopes and your dreams?
What are you really trying to accomplish?
And in the pursuit of making,
in attaining those goals,
there will be risks that we have to take.
And even if we fall
down, you never know that
in that risk may be
where that real unlock,
that real opportunity or
learning if nothing else resides.
And I think that's just so important.
Risk is difficult.
We all wanna stay in
that safe space sometimes,
but to be the best version
of you to unlock your talent,
you will be taking risks.
- That's right, well, I wanna go back
to something you said about
feedback and criticism.
- So, you don't see
those as the same thing.
So, I look at feedback as a gift.
- You know, giving it
and receiving it, right?
So, tell me how you've learned
how to, if you think of feedback
some people think of feedback
as criticism, right?
- So, how did you learn how to
try to change that for yourself?
- Well listen, feedback is a gift,
but sometimes it feels
like a gift you don't want.
(both laugh)
Take it back.
You know, if we're being,
you know, if I'm being honest,
I mean, we, feedback is a gift,
but sometimes you're hesitant to hear it.
But the difference between
feedback and criticism for me
is anchored on intention.
If someone is giving me feedback,
I receive it better than criticism,
because I think feedback for
me at least says, this person
wants me to be better.
- This person is giving me a true gift.
This person is helping
me with my blind spots.
This person is on my team.
Criticism, I may not know
where your intention is lying.
Are you critiquing me
to make me feel small
in order for you to feel big?
Are you critiquing me
because you just haven't learned how to
articulate it in a way that I
can receive it or feedback?
And so, I just think
feedback is important,
criticism you have to sometimes navigate.
But here's the most important thing Ebony,
whether it's criticism or feedback
because sometimes the
receiver we can mix it up.
- The point is
we should be open to receiving
what people have to say,
but you have to calibrate
that in your own prism.
- That's right. - And you have to say,
I am open in receiving the feedback
in the critique, but then I
am the CEO of Thasunda.
And therefore I have to process
everything that people have said,
and I either say exactly the way
in which you shared it with
me is the way I will receive it,
or I will say the way in which you said it
I would modify it, but I can receive it,
or I will say return to sender and delete.
(Ebony laughs)
Because all feedback
and criticism can be not be--
- Or take back your "gift".
- Exactly, you know,
but I think it's important
because sometimes criticism or feedback
may not be exactly
the point of what you're trying
to solve for. - Right.
- It's someone expressing their thoughts
and you have a
responsibility to process it
in a way that you can decide
how is this going to make me better?
- Right. - And sometimes there's
feedback that you will receive
that you will disagree
with and that's okay.
But the trick is to always
be open to receiving it
and have gratitude for what
people are willing to share
even if it's not always positive.
- You just said something
that I want to take us back
to because it's something
we talk a lot about,
and I know I talk about this personally
I have this concept of
I have team E, and I am the CEO of team E.
And I have a personal board of directors
at all levels in my life.
And so, but it's ultimately, I
have to make the decision.
So when it's, whether
it's accepting feedback
or criticism or whatever
it is, advice, guidance,
I have to internalize that and make sure
it works for me. - Right.
- Because people have all
kinds of advice, suggestions,
you know, for you. - Yes.
- So do you feel the same
way and who's in your team?
- Wow! First, I do feel the same way.
You know, I am the president,
the CEO of Thasunda,
but I realize in order to be the best
I need to have those
truth tellers around me.
And I need to make sure that
I am the biggest truth teller of myself.
And I think that's important too.
But who's around me, oh, my goodness.
First of all, you have your core board,
the ones who really
understand who I am at my core.
And that's that sisterhood for me
and some brothers and the brotherhood,
but my my network that
know the essence of who I am.
And therefore they may not be on the board
to help me think through complex issues,
but they are my board
reminding me who I am
and what I'm here to do.
And then you have your other boards.
You have your boards
when you are working
through those complex issues
or when you are as we
are Ebony, senior executives
and that loneliness that comes with it
and being able to connect with people
that really understand what that means
and how to navigate through it.
So, I think that for me, I create boards
that really, really embody
all the aspects of who I am.
Because not one board
can be the best board
for all aspects of me.
And I just think you
can't put that pressure
on your one board because
you will not be able
to get the best advice.
You have to give
yourself permission to say,
what am I trying to tap into?
And who are the best people that I trust
that can give me that?
And it could be my children,
it could be my spouse,
it could be my girlfriends,
it could be my guy friends,
it could be people at work,
or it could be even
the people that I mentor
'cause there's a lot to
me and I need that coach
and that feedback from
a host of different people.
- That's right, I wanna,
I know there are a lot of
parents in the audience,
so I just wanna take a moment,
as we started off kinda
talking about our parents
and what we learned,
and that feeling of black excellence.
So, I'd love to know just
what are you teaching
your kids right now
that you hope that they take
with them into adulthood?
Or is there anything you're teaching them
with regard to fighting that urge
towards perfectionism that you can share
with other parents who are
building these mini bosses?
- Right, well, I would
start with affirmations.
If you ask my children who they are
they will say that they
are smart, kind, and brave.
And that's from my
five-year-old all the way up.
Because I think reaffirming
what you want from your children
is most important thing.
- That's right.
- I would also say that
I am a huge believer
in teaching my children that
the only job they really have
is to be the best version of themselves.
And I think it's really important
when you are this mom that, you know,
is ascending and who's trying to be
the best version of herself, which is me.
I'm trying to be the best version.
And I never want my excellence
to be the thing that my
children feel they cannot be.
And therefore it's a
negative in their own psyche.
And so, I am reminding my children
to be the best version of themselves
anchored in character.
- And it's so important,
especially as we think about
the next generation
coming up, there's so much
that they're dealing with. - Yeah.
- Like you said, that we
never had to deal with.
So yeah, well, we've
been 12, we've been five.
We've never been five in 2021, right?
So-- - Correct, you're right.
- So Thasunda final question,
I'm asking everyone
what their superpower is
and I'm gonna make
it a little harder for you
and ask you for your superpower
and your advice for those
who haven't been able to yet identify
what their personal superpower is.
- My super power is where my passion lies
which is to inspire.
And that shows up
through my ability in quest
to connect with others and through always
understanding the power of community.
And so, what I would say
to those who are saying,
I don't know my super power,
or I don't know my purpose.
Let's break it all the way down.
And I start with letting everyone know
that you are extraordinary.
And if I play back these
words, it will connect to you.
Extraordinary is kindness.
Are you kind?
That can be your superpower.
Extraordinary is intellectual curiosity.
Are you curious?
Extraordinary is giving.
All of those adjectives
that define who you are,
is your super power.
The only question we have to ask ourselves
is what aspect of that are you
going to unlock and unleash?
And the unleash, is where
your super power lies.
- That was so inspiring.
Thasunda, I wanna thank
you for giving us an inside look
into the life of a real boss.
This has been such a treat for me
and for everyone watching at home.
So I just wanna say thank
you so much for being here
and sharing your authentic self with us.
- Thank you, Ebony, it was a pleasure.
- And now I wanna hear
what you have to say.
So let's hear your questions.
- Hi Ebony, you know the saying
don't let perfect be the enemy of good?
I find it hard to share things
that are a work in progress
because I'm afraid that
it reflect poorly on me.
What's your advice for getting over this?
- Hi Jeremy, great question.
And you know, it sounds
like you already know that
perfectionism is getting
in the way of collaboration
which is so essential in
getting the best possible product.
So my advice for sharing your work early
is to do it with some boundaries.
For example, let your team know
that you're working on
something that's not finished,
or give them specific instructions
for how and where to plug in.
Be explicit and say how
you'd like the feedback.
You know, here but not there,
or ask support for figuring out X,
but that you've got Y covered.
I find that people are
often eager to help.
They just don't why, always
know how to be the most helpful
and they can get pretty overwhelming
unless you offer some direction.
So, try setting up some boundaries
the next time you share your work,
so that you can gain that helpful input
and perspective of your team
without feeling bombarded.
I just wanna thank you all
for sending us your questions.
I will definitely include
some each episode.
So please add your
questions in the comments
on our LinkedIn page, or send
me a tweet @EbonyBeckwith,
using #BossTalks.
I hope you all enjoyed
today's conversation on perfectionism.
To continue building
valuable skills for your career,
head on over to Trailhead,
Salesforce's free online learning platform
that helps anyone skill
up for in demand jobs
in the Salesforce ecosystem.
With that, I'm Ebony Beckwith,
thank you for tuning into Boss Talks.
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