And welcome to Boss Talks
a series featuring candid career advice
from some of the best in the business.
Today's episode is all about making moves.
And our careers are made up
of all the small decisions
we make every single day.
Whether it's where we wanna work,
what role we wanna take on
something with our manager.
Every small decision matters.
And it can be hard to know
if you're making the right one.
The good news is most of these decisions
won't make or break your career.
It's called a journey for a reason
and the experiences along
the way are often greater
than the destination itself.
So don't be afraid to just go for it.
To help me navigate this topic,
I've invited someone who has
made some serious boss moves
including Google, Amazon, StubHub, and more.
chairman of The Board List.
Sukhinder welcome to Boss Talks.
- Well, I'm so happy to be here Ebony.
is like goals for many of us.
So we're here to learn from you.
and ask what are some of the
most memorable experiences
and moves you've made in your career?
because they can all be really
great learning experiences.
And I think one of the things
that's probably most worth appreciating is
not every great move looks
great at the moment you make it.
to get the reward we want.
And so if you measure it on day one,
they may not all look great.
But when we hindsight, you know
what those moves brought us
something pretty magical.
So probably one of my earliest
was the move to Silicon Valley.
I was living in London at the time
and working for BskyB Media Company.
had actually moved back to the states
to go to business school.
But two of them were California girls.
Stanford Business School.
And let me just say, I fell
in love with the weather.
I fell in love with the esprit de corps
and I really wanted be an entrepreneur
And so I upped and moved to California.
You know, I wasn't really thinking
in Silicon Valley at the time
other than I wanted be an entrepreneur.
obviously 1997 was the start
of another, you know, really major
let's say surge in internet usage,
mainstream internet usage.
And it turns out that moving
to Silicon Valley at that time
you have lots of opportunities to succeed
and it'll still turn out okay.
- So you've written a lot about
the myth of the single choice.
Which is the idea that one decision
can make or break our career.
So what's a more constructive way to think
in the book, I read a lot
myth of the single choice.
you know, a single choice
And of course, like popular
press kind of creates myths
that people take in their careers, right?
So in hindsight, everything boils down
to that one big move that somebody made.
When if you turned it inside out
you'd find that between any major reward.
whether you're Jeff Bezos
whether you're Elon Musk,
and any major reward is not one move.
you make in order to optimize, right?
Every move towards this ultimate reward
And so I will say to people, first of all
maybe stop subscribing to
the myth of the single choice
and recognize that between you
and what you're ultimately
seeking is that big reward
is probably your a hundred
Because all of those linked
together to get the reward.
weighting the initial choice.
And maybe the most important thing to do
is just to get into motion
with, you know, a smart choice
but then realize you have many, many
what I thought was these micro moves,
you just have these like the series
Could be one to a thousand, you know
moves that we make that ultimately lead us
And then we're making moves in there.
Hopefully we're growing in learning
and we're always in motion.
way, you hit one other thing
it's one mighty move, right?
You and I both know you can move, you know
you can move 360 degrees all at once,
or you can move a degree at a time
and you'll still, you know
when all is said and done.
And I think that moves of
micro sizes, medium sizes
steps is sort of my point
of navigating our own career
is rooted in this risk taking.
And for some people, a small
micro move might be as big
as a huge leap for someone.
So tell us some of your tips for building
So we can get a little bit
more comfortable doing that.
- Well, first of all, I think
we tend to boil risk taking
ambition I want to achieve.
And what I say to people is
often there are four reasons
Number one, to achieve some ambition.
So risk taking for discovery
And we'll talk about that.
taking for learning, right?
You and I might say, hey,
somebody offered us career move.
That looks lateral, but you
get to learn a whole new skill.
And so, you know, in my career,
I've certainly taken a lot of those moves,
which don't at obvious, you know
at first blush seem the obvious move.
we take risk is to avoid harm.
risk taking that happened
were literally like, wow.
My business cannot go bankrupt.
And people learn their own agility
and risk taking maneuvers
So there's these four reasons.
But if you think about the
three of the four for upside,
right, learning, discovery ambition.
So I would say to people find
a reason to take a risk today.
And that could be as simple
as something's bothering you at work.
And you stay silent about it.
with your boss or your partner.
It could be, you're thinking
but you think it's one mighty move.
what's the risk taking you
could do today for discovery?
Like, what's the thing you're imagining?
and discover what's possible?
risks you could take today.
And I'm like, but what if I told you
under any of those fears.
What little risk would you take today?
- I'm sure everyone out here wants you to
because already it's just
already in these few questions.
- I can just give my own advice trust me.
And I really just admire,
that through line is just get in motion,
And as those choices link,
to a small outcome, a bigger
outcome, a bigger outcome.
but it kind of doesn't matter.
- [Sarah] It's doesn't matter.
- [Ebony] Yeah, you're learning.
So what techniques do you have
for just pushing past that fear to focus
on the opportunity itself?
You know, you're hitting the biggest risk
I think the irony of risk taking
is there arguably two big risks
in my mind that people fail to estimate.
One is the risk of staying still.
I.e literally doing nothing
that one of the best stats I've seen is
from the world economic forum
that talks about the fact
that any of our single skills
degrade by 50% over a five year period.
So simply by staying still
you're actually falling behind.
So if nothing else, let that remind you
that any move is a good move when compared
to staying still any move, right.
As long as it increases your learning
- Yeah, second, I know it's crazy.
risk is taking only one risk.
if you think you're gonna
it's like learning, saying
but I'm gonna make one trade.
And that trade better work because of it.
gonna make me a millionaire.
they build a portfolio of trades
and they learn from each trade.
They try to get smarter and they know
build a winning portfolio.
And so I think that like part
of what keeps us, you know
not acting is this, we think
stability is safe, untrue.
And then we also think like,
hey, it's one big move untrue.
So if you need help getting into action
that you should fear more
moves, fear making no move
and fear of putting all your
eggs in a single winning move
because that's what I call luck.
to get yourself in action.
as you're trying to make a decision
to get yourself into action.
I'll say to people instead of
just visualizing the positive
which a lot of people do,
they visualize the positive.
I wanna like, imagine what's gonna happen.
But if you can't overcome
your fear of failure in acting
And so there, I would say to people,
try to pre-morteming the failure
And sometimes pre-morteming
in which we can realize .
That if there are multiple
choices after a failing choice
- I love that because most people think
about doing a post-mortem,
but you're getting ahead of it.
So you're doing a pre-mortem
and it reminds me of something.
One of my mentors and coaches said to me,
she used to tell me, play it
through to the end, you know?
- Yes, that's the right case.
play it through to the end.
Right, and you just try to
imagine different outcomes.
Now I have a term for that.
We're gonna pre-mortem it.
I think is a really great technique.
- As opposed to visualizing the positive.
to what you said around fear
because I think a lot of folks think that
We shouldn't get mistakes.
We get in trouble when we make mistakes.
have to have it all figured out
successes, but also my messes.
So people can see that it's okay to...
And especially on social media,
because that's where, you know
people are usually sharing
the most positive things.
And so I think it's okay to
share that we're still learning.
We're still making mistakes and it's okay
that you don't get it right all the time.
So I love that you shared
some of your stories as well
behaviors do you try to model
for your employees so that they know
that they just don't have
to be perfect all the time.
- Every manager of people
has the ability to create
a risk taking culture or an
environment of possibility.
So what does that look like?
What are some of the tips?
people need to feel safe and
included in their workplaces
in order for them to take any risk.
And what does that really look like?
no, organization is perfect.
I'm not a perfect manager.
You're not a perfect manager
but what it means is we wanna be
we think generally speaking
the values of the people we work with
and our own values have enough overlap
sense of what's right and just,
those people are perfect.
It doesn't mean the environment's perfect.
It means that, you know, if
you said, hey, would you trust
organization, the microculture
a constructive criticism that
their sense of what's right.
and fair aligns enough with your own
that you feel like you're
So let's presume that that exists
which is what we'd all love.
What else can managers do
to create this kind of environment?
You have to get people, a structure
in which to brainstorm, take
risks, provide possibilities.
And then the last thing I say
know, safety and inclusivity
certainly you already talked
about modeling the behavior
giving people a framework
in which they can take risk.
So they know what the parameters are.
tips I often give to managers.
I'm like, okay, if you really
wanna create an environment
looks a lot more imperfect
to your point than you think.
perfect be the enemy of good.
Maybe even like a bigger move
companies as you've done.
- So like when we're not having
impact or we're not learning
this is when people get itchy.
two good telltale signs, right?
If you have both, of course,
you're in the ideal scenario
learning and making an impact,
but when one or the other
is starting to feel unsatisfying
something needs to change
whether that's big or small.
but favorite question and that
is what is your superpower?
- Hmm. What is my superpower?
meaning I think I can give
people energy and a feeling
that something is achievable.
So I'd like to think that
with me can bring them not
some feeling of possibility
and like five more things to consider.
your net energy transmitter.
not say that 'cause I maybe
a pain in his ass but generally speaking,
And I hope I distribute it
to the people I work with.
I know for me, you've expanded my horizon
and the art of what's possible.
you for being so thoughtful
and helping us navigate our careers
moves that we all wanna make.
So thank you again for being here today.
- Well thank you for having
me so much fun to see you.
I hope you all enjoy today's conversation.
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